Judul : San Antonio Metropolitan Health District
link : San Antonio Metropolitan Health District
San Antonio Metropolitan Health District
>> good afternoon everybody!good afternoon. i'm sarah rosen wartel, ihave the great privilege of being the president of theurban institute and on behalf of all of my colleagues thathave been here, we have the great pleasure of welcomingyou to this really exciting
San Antonio Metropolitan Health District, afternoon.i could not be more thrilled to host this.i think most of you know what urban is but forgive me for asecond just to say that the urban institute is anorganization that does social
and economic policy research,and it brings data and modeling tools and programevaluation to some of the biggest challenges that oursociety faces. we were founded in 1968 afterthe riots in our cities, and our purpose at the time wasto deepen our understanding of the hopes and obstaclesthat were facing the poor living in many of america'scities and to help policymakers understandwhether the polices that they were implementing wereworking.
today our research portfolioranges from the social safety net to health and tax policy,from the well being of families and neighborhoods, 2trends in work, earnings, wealth building, and much,much more. if you visit urban.org thesedays i think you will see we understand that behind dataand analysis and snazzy data visualizations and much more,we understand that what we are talking about throughawfully that analysis and work is about the lives ofreal people.
today, we are going toexplore stories that urban researchers have studied fordecades. polices that many of mycolleagues have helped to inform.issues that many here today work on in their day to daylives still. we would explore thosestories today to the lives of residents of yonkers, becausethey were brought it to life in a really compelling bookby lisa belkin, and they've now been brought it to ourscreens and televisions and
other devices across thenation through the extraordinary work of davidsimon in the hbo series, show me a hero.let me briefly introduce our panelists now, so that we canthen hear a little bit about the show and see an excerpt,and the panel will come back up and talk more about it,and then i hope talk with all of you.first i'm going to introduce secretary of hud, housing andurban development, julian castro.secretary castro assumed his
role in july of last year so 3it's now been a little over a year, mr. secretary.still probably feels like the new kid.but he has quickly established himself assomeone who is focused on performance-driven approachto extending opportunity for all americans.not only has he come to our discussion today, bringingthe perspective of a senior administration official, partof the government efforts to strengthen opportunity, buthe is a former mayor who has
had to wrestle in his owncity of san antonio with all kinds of new challenges, in anew era but with similar issues.he was in san antonio mayor a leader in urban development,a leader in education for young people of that city,and in particular, a leader in bringing together anunderstanding of how the different silos of policy inone place all come together to improve or get in the wayof people making progress in their own lives.>> david simon probably needs
no introduction to this room.in my house he is known as the person most responsiblefor sleepless nights for my husband, who goes to bed at10:00, and looks at me at 1:30.david simon's work is a definition in the dictionaryi believe of compelling. he is the executive producerand writer of show me a hero, he has written and producedmany critically acclaimed television series, including 4homeless life on the street, the wire, his projectsexplore and make us all want
to know more about poverty,corruption, the parts of our society that don't work.and yet, he makes us not want to turn our eyes away, butlook and understand, because he tells a compelling storyabout three people. in doing so, he draws on hiscreative work, his background as a beat reporter from thebaltimore sun. we are also very excited tohave my new friend, long time friend of urban, james perry.james is a community advocate and housing expert who spent10 years as the ceo of the
greater new orleans fairhousing action center. under his leadership, thecenter won more than half a billion dollars for victimsof discrimination across louisiana.before working in new orleans, james founded themississippi gulf coast fair housing center which was thefirst organization of its type in mississippi.and finally, i'm going to be joined in this discussionwith urban's own marg turner, marg is a nationallyrecognized expert on urban
policy and neighborhoodissues, she has analyzed issues of residentiallocations, racial and ethnic discrimination and itscontributions to neighborhood segregation and inequalityand she has studied the role of housing polices inpromoting residential mobility and location choice. 5in a 2009 book written with urban colleagues, publichousing and legacy of segregation, she explored thequestions we will be talking about today, she also joinsme in being part of the royal
group of hud alumni of whom isee many in this room. and finally, i just want tothank michelle boston who helped us work together withdavid and hud and everyone else to pull this eventtogether. we are very grateful for hervery terrific partnership in this.we are going to start with a 15 minute segment from thesecond hour of show me a hero, we're going to see thestruggles that the community was facing, several of thefamilies that were impacted
by the court's decisions.and then we're going to bring the panel up and we will havetime for questions. you should have found on yourseats cards. throughout the event iencourage you to write down thoughts and ideas.as we get into the panel people will come through theroom and collect those for you.we are looking forward to being able to sort throughand create a nice flow of conversation with thequestions.
i also encourage those of youwho like it to tweet to use the hashtag live at urban andhashtag, show me a hero, to the extent you can, and bepart of this discussion. so finally, we have one more 6really special guest for you all today.clayton lebusk played benjamin hooks in the series,he has performed off broadway, at top regionaltheaters, but most of us probably know him through hisappearances in many other hbo productions, includingsomething award made, the
wire, the corner, and therole in which i first was introduced to him was captainbarnfather on the nbc series, homeless life on the street.perhaps most relevant today, though, is that clayton grewup in yonkers, and in fact, lived in the public housingprojects, and so it's really a terrific honor for us tohave you introduce this today.thank you for being here, everybody.>> [applause] >> good afternoon everyone!i'm very excited to be here
at the monico.i want to thank the urban institute and their missionto elevate the debate, to elevate the discussion, toelevate what we would say on the street, rapping to oneanother. this is my first conversationwith the urban institute. it is a collaboration i'vedealt with with one other lady, mishon boston of themishon boston group, she has helped drive this event weare at this afternoon. i want to thank her.we are working on a film
preservation project as wespeak. the young lady has a special 7place in the washington, d.c. area and i want to thank her.before we show the clip, i will be glad to speak withanybody as i move forward in theater, television and film,i will be speaking about the work with with mr. davidsimon. it's surreal.for me to look out of my window as a child, at thecity hall clock that you see in this series, and as ayoung man, looking out at
that clock, i recognizeconstantly what time was, what is time, and i hearpeople talk about time being money, and i disagree.time is your heart beat. and i learned that as achild, as i would stare at this clock.it it was a friend of mine. but it caused me a lot ofproblems, too, because i had friends that do time,literally, living up in the projects.i took a different route. but i want to share somethingwith you before i get started
mr. bob mahock is a man iknew, a man portrayed by a wonderful actor, clarkpeters. he portrays mr. robertmayhock, the counselor for the people in the project.he gave me a book in 1986, okay, it was called mahock'slaw, sounds like a good name for a television show, but inhis book, he has a guiding principle, and it sayseverything is connected to everything else.that's simple but it's profound, like most things. 8everything is connected to
everything else.i mean, you on that up the first page of lisa belkin'sbook, the first thing you see or the first thing i saw,current events. the book has a copyright dateof 1980 but when you open the hard cover up, the next thickto the price of the book, it says current events.back to time. what is current?what is past? is enslavement a long timeago? huh?no.
it was yesterday.whether people want to table or not.everything is connected to everything else.we're going to move on with the panel, and leave you withthese words. if everything is connected toeverything else, we have court orders and appealsgoing on back in the day with lorraine hansbury versuschicago. right now as we speak in thenation's capitol, isn't there appeals and court orders fora football team in this town?
everything is connected toeverything else. mr. david simon's work as iappeared on homicide, as i appeared in the why thesethings are meaningful, words of death, and as a young mancast in the king and i, in my yonkers high school andturned down the role because it was too corny, but i diddo the dutchman by amir baraca, it was a little more 9to my taste. so you dream of roles ofdeath as a theater actor, as someone some people -- idreamt a role that had depth
and meaning and mr. simon hasprovided those roles for me and i thank him.the last thing i will leave you with as my two minutescomes to a close, everything is related to everythingelse. we are navigating curves.ladies and gentlemen, as far as what they call race isconcerned, i don't believe too much in dialogues onrace, i believe in dialogue about achievement andaccomplishment. you will see what people looklike when you tell people
what things they've done.listen to this and i will close, i am not attracted tostraight angles or the straight line.i am not attracted to those. i'm attracted to heart and --they have been created by man.i'm attracted to free flowing curves.i find in the mountains and rivers and waves of the oceanof my country that the architect, oscar newmeyer whobuilt the united nations headquarters, is thearchitect in this series, and
oscar newman, let's build,let's talk, let's elevate the debate.thank you. >> it it was the mostchallenging i've every encountered.the riots, the demonstrations. 10put the camera on it, and tell the truth.>> this is a story about how this is actually practiced inamerica. you can run a long way with apolitician on the twin currencies of fear and money.in yonkers those tore the
town up.>> it's a story of integration and aneighborhood of people who were not willing to do so.>> there was a need no affordable housing.yonkers had for generation had one tiny area of the cityto keep it hyper segregated. >> 200 units of housing wereto be bit in a predominantly white afro part of town.it set off a bomb. >> nick was basically thrownto the dogs by his higher ups.imagine what they are
sacrificing.>> they knocked off the incumbent, saying thedifference between him and me, i vote to appeal thehousing. he voted to not appeal.>> he found there was no grounds for appeal.>> you promised such an appeal.you have succeeded in raising the voters.>> he is going to be great man, have all the wonderfulthings he was going to do, then things were done, andeverything changed.
>> people were very upsetabout the idea their property values would be somehowcompromised by public housing. 11>> 200, within walking distance of my house and idon't want it. >> he is part of the stridentgroup, she doesn't want this element down her street.>> these were people who felt they were fighting for theircommunity, that they were right, they were justified.>> the decision has got to be wrong and they looked atnick, then he had to tell
them the truth.there is no fight. we are a nation of law.and we lost. >> how come the only peopletalking about this damn housing thing are whites?>> it's all our lives, women, public housing residents,8 percent of the bravest women i know.>> you could move. would you?my home is my home. >> everybody wasn't trying tointegrate. good, bad, indifferent,everybody wasn't trying.
>> they don't want to livewith us. >> this showed how much thereis on both sides. fear of moving what you knowto what you don't know. >> one of the most excitingthings about this mini series, it shows you justiceat work. >> the case only settled in2007. this is recent history.>> show me a hero, i'll write you a tragedy.>> this is a very human story about this young guy, tryingto find his way through this
mess. 12>> first of all, it's extraordinarily compellingtelevision. if there is anyone in theroom that has not watched all six episodes my highestrecommendation is you spend the hours between 11:00 and2:00 a.m., like i have, over the last month, watching it,because it's really extraordinary.but this is not your typical hollywood hero story.what made you want to bring these people's story to life,of all the different stories
you could choose from?>> we -- >> [inaudible]>> we optioned the book 14 years ago, and it wassupposed to be the next mini series.we were doing a mini series, this was supposed to be afterthe corner, which went on in 2000.and it got bumped for show me a hero, which had a news tagof the iraq war and got bumped for -->> [inaudible] >> it got bumped for treme,about katrina.
good thing about americanracial dysfunction, it's always going to be around.just wait on it and it will come around again.that's really what happened. the story of nick wasisco andhis malety in yonkers is preshakespearan, and he's nota hero. the real heroes of this pieceare strangely enough bureaucrats and some of theresidents and even some of the people who are opposed to 13the housing who later grew, but nick's arc gives yousomething that you can latch
on to and make a very wonkystory human. so we knew it was there, itus just -- it was just a matter of getting around toit really. >> mr. secretary, you canstep back and help us sort of put our heads back into -->> [inaudible] >> sorry.i'm still on. you can hear me?all right. so give us a little bit of asense of where we were in the 1980s.this case obviously stretched
for many years before.the show starts and stretched three years after.we are checking into the middle of this story.but can you tell us a little bit more about the broadersetting of what was happening in yonkers before this showstarts and sort of what led the court to find that therewas a deprivation of rights in the first place that madethem issue orders to force the -- we see here just thefirst location of 200 units that were going be publichousing and then the next
step was another 800 units ofother affordable housing but even this first step took adecade. >> first of all, thank youvery much, to you and urban, for having us, andcongratulations, david, for great work.so this picks up i believe in 1987, it had been filed in 141980 and emanated out of the fact that yonkers hadsqueezed 7000 units into one square miles in yonkers andthat had drawn the attention of many folks, but a lawsuitby the naacp, and at this
point in the movie, at thispoint in the story, when the movie picks up, there hadbeen a consent decree ordered and they were failing to liveup to the decree to locate 200 public housing units inessentially a white part of the community, in otherwords, start spreading out public housing, and therewere a few to do that. this comes against thebackdrop of the history of essentiallygovernment-sponsored segregation that reached fromlocal government to state
governments to the federalgovernment, at fha, for instance, at a time when fhaessentially rubber stamped -- the decisions made in yonkerswere fully common and of course, in the presentsector, you had the legacy of outright discriminationagainst people of color in the housing market.so that's sort of the context of it, where we pick this upin 1987. >> so we're going to comeback later to talk more about the current day, but give usa quick start to think about
-- this doesn't feel thatdifferent than the things that are crossing your deskon a day to day basis. and so just a quick thoughtabout the government's role in today's market. 15do we still have a responsibility to try andtackle of the issues of residential segregation, doyou feel like you have better tools today?>> yes and yes. we not only have aresponsibility, i think a moral responsibility, we havea legal responsibility to do
that in the fair housing actof 1968. and under the fair housingact, the secretary has a responsibility toaffirmatively further fair housing, and so dojurisdictions that receive money from hud.so yes, there is that responsibility, yes, we dosee that. just at the end of last weekon friday, the second circuit court of appeals ruled that acase is still going on with the county of westchester, wefeel like these days that the
tools we have are bothstronger and have been recently affirmed.i say stronger because over the summer, we released theaffirmatively furthering fair housing rule, whichessentially sharpens up both the tools and resources thatwe are giving to communities to help them understand thefair housing landscape that their localities andunderstand how they can do something about it to improveit, and strengthen, because there's i think a strongerresolve on our part at hud
these days, and in the obamaadministration, to work with communities, to collaborate 16as vigorously as we can, but not be afraid to enforce whenwe need to. and, the supreme court alsoaffirmed our ability to use disparate impact in thecontext of the fair housing act of 1968.so it has been a very good year for fair housing.>> james, you've been using the fair housing act andother constitutional remedies over the last 20 years now.what has changed since 1980
and what hasn't?>> that's one of the most interesting things about theshow. i felt look i tracked thelast 10 years of my life. one of the interesting casesthat i worked on in new orleans was just outside ofnew orleans, saint bernard parish.there was a case in which a community shortly afterhurricane katrina passed a law called the blood relativeordinance, and in that ordinance, it provided thatyou could not rent a single
family home that you owned tosomeone who you were not related to by blood.so you had to be related to the person that you weregoing to rent your home to. this was right afterhurricane katrina. i couldn't figure out for mylife, why they wanted to restrict the opportunities tohousing, when so many home units had been destroyed.and so it became really clear they were trying to keeppeople of color out of the parish after hurricane 17katrina.
and so we shortly afterwardsfiled suit against saint bernard parish and got aconsent decree within about nine months, and only twomonths after that consent decree, a developer tries tobuild affordable housing and is denied, so they ask us tohelp them by using the consent decree, so that turnsinto 10 years of litigation to get 200 units built insaint bernard parish, in a majority white community.so it's very similar to what happens here and ultimatelythe person who proposed that
ordinance runs under thistheory for mayor that he will make sure the affordablehousing units for low income residents won't be built, sothen he gets and the judge fines him and fines theparish and they say -- it says it must be built, sofinally he agrees to allow it to be built and on and on andon, and it ends up being settled for several millionsof dollars and units are built, so secretary castro,your predecessor, came and visited those units probablyin 2012 or so, and so -- but
it's almost exactly the same.so i was looking at the showing and trying to figureout what is different because so much of it tracked exactlywhat happened in saint bernard parish afterhurricane katrina, so similar to what was happening inwestchester. the one thing that i didrealize was different actually wasn't better. 18the one thing that seems to me to be different is that inmy experiences now, when i go into a city council chamber,and instead of it being an
all-white city councilchamber, it's a mixed race city council chamber, therewill be african-american latino members of that citycouncil. but the problem is that atleast in my experience, often times those people of colorwho are on those councils don't have any incentive topush for integration, either, because if they start to seetheir council districts change too much, then theylose their policy, they no longer have the ability toget all the votes they need
to be elected, and thecommunity becomes too integrated and they areworried, so often times, they actually will -- publicly,they are supportive, but behind closed doors, they arenot that supportive of efforts to integratecommunities. and that's the only thingthat i see that is that different from what was goingon in the '80s. >> i'm going to interrupt onthat for one second and ask, i was just looking at a newsstory about a similar case
that's going on in an effortto try to encourage the location of a small number ofaffordable housing units, and what was most striking wasquotes from a local elected official that could have beenstraight out of show me a hero. 19the language for those who haven't seen it yet, lateron, the mayor makes a very astute set of comments aboutthe elected officials and the community opponents usingracially coded words, but never mentioning race, and init particular, he calls out
language where people sayit's not about race. what i care about is whetheror not those people have earned the right to live inmy neighborhood, have they, those people, saved up themoney, worked as hard as i have and since they haven't,they can't live here, and they very intentionally don'ttalk about -- they claim they are not racist because of itit, and this exact same language.>> social engineering. that's the encoded,encrusted, libertarian phrase
that argues against anyattempt to mitigate generations ofgovernment-sponsored integration, everything thathappened to the point of people being asked to sharein a present tense moment, that's to be ignored.we need no term for that, there's no vocabulary thatneeds to be discussed. from the moment that a judgesays look, you spent all your money, your government didthis, it was a plan to have a hyper segregated society, tokeep your poor isolated as
much as we conceivably could,you took the money, you did this willfully and nowthere's a remedy and at the point of that remedy, phrases 20like social engineering comes up and all the judge is doingis trying to be social engineer.>> what the hell did you think the last four years wasabout! >> [laughter]>> the arrogance of the libertarian ideal that says igot here now and i want absolute freedom withoutresponsibility, without any
civic responsibility or anycitizenship required of me, i want what i have now, and ifanyone didn't get it up to this point, screw them.>> do you hear any echoes of that in current discussions?>> of course you do. of course you do.you know, david is right, you see that argument and thatlabel thrown about. we started to hear it as theaffirmatively furthering fair housing rule was coming out.i'm sure we'll continue to hear it.there's a history to all of
this.it didn't just appear last year, in these communitiesand the racial composition, the ethnic composition, theeconomic composition, it didn't just come about.it came about because of a set of polices in the publicsector and actions in the private sector thatfundamentally in time were undergirded bydiscrimination, by racial enemy.>> you spent a good bit of your time helping to tellthose stories, the historical
obstacles and their 21consequences. what role did research playin the court cases in yonkers and the sort of longerhistory we have for trying to push for racial integration?>> [inaudible] >> a researcher who iadmired, it showed him drawing on the research hehad done to argue very explicitly for smallerdevelopment, with architecture that blendedinto the neighborhood around them, and the yards, andprivate entrances that
created what he called adifference of space and he was brave enough to speak tothe judge and housing authority, this is the wayyou should build these units, even though it's going to bemore expensive, even though it means finding more sites.and i think this is something researchers really have tostrive to do, to pull from the knowledge that we've gotand make recommendations that are actionable forpolicymakers and practitioners, even though weknow we've always got another
question, we are alwaysseeking to serve, we are always trying to learn moreand we are finding that we know.i think we've learned a pun on these issues since the1980s, but it's helping the policy make respect andpractitioners working on these issues now.the latest finding from raj teddy that has gotten publicalso attention, a cap on a long body of research that 22says that where you live makes a huge difference, thatplace matters, and it doesn't
just matter for sort of dayto day well being, it matters for the long term lifechances of kids. we've also learned that justas we saw in the series, in the history, buildingaffordable housing units in a white neighborhood, in a moreethnic neighborhood, it doesn't bring down propertyvalues, and it doesn't bring crime.as long as the properties are well-managed and they arescaled appropriately, they can be an asset to theneighborhoods, not a problem
for the neighborhood.>> david, let's step back for a second and go back to thepeople and talk a little bit more about wasisco.for those who haven't seen the movie, you can get apreview there, that he is first elected by opposing theformer mayor on this issue, and then the affordablehousing plan and political fortune suffer as a resultgreatly, as do his personal ones, eventually.on two levels, what kind of story were you trying totell, both about an
individual, and hischaracter, as well as about the value of fair housingpolicy? >> before i go into that, iwant to reply, next to the valentine's street site inyonkers where we filmed, we used the actual townhomes inlater episodes to depict the townhomes, because they are 23still there, they are still occupied, they are stillentirely functional. exactly as you said.we needed a construction site of houses under construction.right next to valentine,
right next to the actualtownhomes, they were putting up i think four or five,$650,000 private homes, which -- and we used those as we --we faked those for the construction site of ourtownhomes when the townhomes were being built.but think about that for a moment.if these townhomes had -- had the property values beenthere, the vacant lot next to it would not be, you know --i mean, it was really a telling moment, that we stoleour shots from an actual
private developer who wasputting up big houses next to it.wasisco was a back bench councilman, very young.at the time elected he was the youngest mayor of thecity, over 100,000 in america.so sort of officially a rising star of some sort.he got in by maneuvering to the right of the existingmayor, who was no great champion of public housinghimself. in fact, one of the thingsthat the justice department
and the naacp proved was allthey had to do was go to the minutes of the housingauthority and they literally were saying don't build ithere, we don't want black people in this ward. 24they literally said it. it was unrepentant.market nelli had been part of those discussions.martinelli realized they had not a legal leg to stand on,so let's not waste more money on lawyers, and that was hispolitical undoing, because nick ran to the right of him,saying i voted to appeal to
the federal appeals circuit,the mayor did not vote for me, and he gets in.before the inauguration, they even have the inauguration,lawyers call and say the appeal is denied, you got tobuild the housing. there's no grounds to go tothe supreme court. and he thinks, rathernaively, i ran on appealing but now we have the appeal,so i will tell the people that and we are good to go.so this is not -- there's no classic hero in this.there's a guy who is a very
reactive, very surface levellocal politician, which is kind of how i covered a lotof them. he was no better or worsethan most. he grew under pressure and hecame to see the housing as his legacy after the fact,and bee lately, but he did, at the moment the chips weredown, i think you saw one of the votes where he was alone,where even his allies were abstaining.to give him credit he went through the maelstrom andgrew up a little bit and
started -- he ended in adifferent place. >> mr. secretary, you have 25perhaps not faced quite as angry a mob at very closedistance. >> i thought you were goingto say here. >> this is a very friendlycrowd! this is a friendly crowd.>> give it time! >> but you certainly had tomake very hard and unpopular choices in the mayor's seat.as you watched the show, talk to me a little bit about howyou observed nick's
experiences.>> in different ways. as somebody in localpolitics, first of all there's nothing like localpolitics, been in it, sitting where i do now as secretaryof hud, sometimes i miss the give and take of peopleyelling at you, and telling you and the council how badyou are, how much you don't know, and they are only like15 feet away! and you are so removed fromall of it. it's no fun at all in thatsense!
>> i remember when i was --i got elected when i was 26, to the city council.i must have been like 27 -- yeah, about 27, and we wereconsidering annexing an area that would have gone into mydistrict, and this area was right outside the city, upperclass homes, and they did not want to be in the city, andto put it in context, you hear arguments that theymoved out there for a reason, and, you know, the crime inthe city, and, you know, the -- things are great the way 26they are, and san antonio is
a 63 percent hispanic city,and yet the areas around there are significantly lessdiverse, and probably the most tense situation that iever had was standing on the front lawn in thissubdivision that was slated for annexation, and this guywas about 4 feet away from me, literally -- davidletterman probably would have pounced on me.no security, no anything. it was me and one othercouncil member. and you could just feel theintensity and the
irrationality of folks,really, about these things. and so what i think is i feltthis depicted very well the way that some electedofficials played to the crowd.they know what is going to be very popular and they usethat. buzz spalone, right, twoyears elections. >> [inaudible]>> also though in some ways, perform in a single memberdistributed system, it brings up larger questions ofdemocracy, because some
people do see democracy asyou are suppose to just vote and be a mouth piece for theway that the majority of the people that you representthink. right?there is some merit to that argument.but these issues often were brought to bear, when do youdo that, and when do you -- you know, it's always 27appropriate, because you are the one that is elected thereto use your judgment in this also republican form ofgovernment.
i use that word with a smallr. to do what is right, also.so -- >> well, marg, you were athud in the 1990s, we worked there together, when movingto opportunity demonstrations show the issues have not --not only in the 1980s, but currently, and there was aperiod in the '90s where the same issues came back, and soyou've been watching these issues unfold in citiesaround the country for all of your career.just observations about how
elected officials try to liveup to this and what we can learn from the experiences.>> there were many points in the series, and i saw acouple of them, that took me back very vividly to a longhot evening that i spent on a stage in a high schoolauditorium, full of very angry people.as a researcher, you don't often find yourself in venueswhere people are shutting you down!and i remember thinking there are techniques to handlethis!
and i do not know what theyare! >> [laughter]>> it was a crowd full of people who did not want asingle public housing family to move from the city ofbaltimore. >> [ inaudible] 28>> in fact, i heard the same kind of care in not beingexplicitly racist, but using coded language.so one of the many things that was shouted at me thatevening was that these were people who just sat aroundwatching oprah all day and
didn't know how to wash.it's those people who we don't want in ourneighborhood. but in baltimore and in fourother gigs, the metropolitan areas around the country,moving to opportunity demonstration was implementedpartly because of the courage i think of then-secretaryhenry cisneros, but also because in many of thosecommunities and in baltimore, organizers reached out towell meaning, welcoming, thoughtful people in thereceiving communities,
because they are there.reached out to them, and built a web of support thatbreaks up that anger and fear from the receiving community.and i think it happened late in that story of yonkers, butit did happen. but when people in ourcommunity begin to meet human beings and welcome them intotheir community, they actually can overcome thislegacy of past sexual engineering.>> creighton's friend, bob mayhock, that was his role.that was his role to crack
the white community in a waythat ostensibly, it was draped around an orientationprogram for the residents, which it was, i guess. 29there was a certain amount of orientation to these familieswho would be moving into the new townhouses and the whiteneighborhoods. but really, they wereteaching a lot of the -- some of them even the moreadversarial people, the white residents, the object wasvery -- it was very diverse, going the other way, which ishi, we're going to have you
meet some of these otherfamilies, and that was all it took for some people, and thecharacter, kathy dorman, who i got to meet before shepassed away, when you met mary, she became one of thegreater champions for the townhouses and she grew.and when you read her quotes from the early meetings andstuff that she had said to reporters, and how furiousshe was, she would say -- she told me -- well, i didn't saythat, and we would have to read it, and she would say ohmy god i said that!
and the key moment for her,which was very telling, was a revelation, she went to thisprotest and they were basically protest, and shecould see that the bulldozers were clearing the land, andat that moment she realized, it's coming.we've lost. this is now, you know -- idon't know what i'm doing here anymore, if we've lost,and oh my god, there are going to be people livinghere, a block 1/2 away from where we live and i'm goingtaliban their neighbor and
they're going to think about 30all the things i said and how will i be a neighbor?all of the sudden, they became real to her.they were not just an abstraction.>> that was it for mary. that broke her.that meeting of a couple of people who were going to bein those houses, she went the other way, and that was themost -- it was just brilliant, simple andbrilliant. >> in the courtroom, tryingto invoke the constitution or
fair housing act on behalf ofparticular people, how do you think about what changeshearts and minds, what makes a difference to them?>> and just to be clear, i think that litigation is asmall part of this effort. i think that more thananything, it's a marketing effort.and i think that mary is the person we are trying to reachand the most difficult person, and she representsone of the most difficult questions around thequestion, the goal of
integration for these unitedstates, and so, you know, all the time i read studies aboutthe advantages of integration and of diverse communities,and those studies always talk about the benefits for peopleof color, and -- but often times, they proposeintegration and diversity as a benefit to white people inaltruistic terms, and what i suggest is that a lot oftimes, that's just not enough to convince people to support 31integration, because they think that too much is atrisk because they are
operating on stereotype andthey think that everything they've invested could belost if you are wrong. and so, you know, whathappens with mary is what we are trying to accomplish.and so as i watched her character change, the problemfor me was the amount of resources it took to changeher. so what i'm thinking, theentire time, is well, you know, how much money did thatcost, and how do i scale that, and how do i go tosecretary castro to apply for
a grant, or funding to fundthat, for louisiana, for the united states, and that's thechallenge. >> secretary, one of thedebates that has raged alongside the discussionwe've been just having for the last 30 years is aboutwhether or not you can move into the communities wherelow income families live and bring to those communitiesthe assets that make for economic opportunity, forhealthy culture, whether that's bringing employmentinto the community, bringing
social services into thecommunity, access to transportation, or whether,like was tried in the nto experience or in the movingthe units because of oscar newman's insight intodistributed neighborhoods around the city, you need tomove people to places where the infrastructure for 32opportunity exists. and the research hassharpened our thinking again about the fact that there areplaces where economic opportunity is much richerthan it is in others.
so how are we thinking todayabout those tradeoffs and about whether we can makethem a place of opportunity or whether we have to moveeveryone into the others in yonkers and equivalent place?>> you've really hit the nail on the head of what is one ofthe fiercest debates out there in terms of approaches,and the research early they are year was a powerfulreminder of how significant it can be for families to getto move to higher opportunity areas.and the fact is, and for many
folks following this over thelast couple of decades, the story of our spending onaffordable housing is it's become more voucher-basedover time, and so there is a strong commitment at hud tothat, but we are not going to give up.you also can't give up meeting people are they'reat. and that has been the focusof our place-based work, of trying to work withcommunities to empower them to holistically lift up theeconomic and quality of life
factors in theirneighborhood. so this is the idea behindpromise neighborhoods, behind choice neighborhoods, strongcity, strong communities, a number of initiatives within 33hud and other departments working with localcommunities. i just don't think that youcan do just one those. that you have to do both ofthose. 100 percent, the best thingwould be to move people to higher opportunityneighborhoods.
what about the people thatdon't want to move? what about the people thatthat's where they grew up, that's the place they love,they feel connected, they've been there for generations?i think you need to give folks who want thatopportunity to move the chance to do that and usefair housing laws assertively and aggressively when youneed to, to make sure that it's not just other loweropportunity areas where they can move to, that they canmove to the suburbs, to
higher opportunity areaswithin a city, but then not forget about those distressedareas as well. you can't abandon them, andfor the folks who want to remain there, we have to doour level best to improve our communities, working withthem as well. >> james, we were just --maybe celebrating is not the right word but marking thetenth anniversary of katrina. the date is front and centerin the neighborhoods where you people hearing, sayingwhy are you telling me i need
to move, why can't theresources come to the lower ninth ward. 34can you talk about it from your home town's perspective?>> a very difficult question. and you know, in the daysafter katrina, there was no question, because people wereforced to leave their neighborhoods and forced tocommunities of opportunity. so people found themselvesall over the nation, often times in the community ofopportunity, and it was interesting, because beforewe left new orleans, the
biggest gripe was that theschools were terrible, there was a lot of crime, and youknow, there weren't job opportunities, but once theyfound themselves in the neighborhood of opportunity,the biggest gripe was they couldn't find any more redbeanies, and all the other issues were immediatelysolved, right? so 10 years later, the folkswho stuck with new orleans are still dealing with thesame questions, and some are wrestling with moving out ofstruggling neighborhoods like
the lower ninth ward, wherei'm sorry to say that if you visit today, it doesn't lookvery different from the days it looked after hurricanekatrina, mostly a vacant field, and so people who livethere now say well, should i continue to stay here in thisvacant field, where my house is the only house here, andyou know, one or two schools, and, you know, only onegrocery store, or should i move to a community wherethere's opportunity. it's a very difficult issue. 35the neighborhood just
adjacent to the neighborhoodwhere i lived until about a year ago, the average lifespan was people lived in total -- people lived untilthey were about 55 years old, but cue move across town tothe neighborhood where people lived on average to be intothe late 70s, and if you could afford it, it would bea great place to live. so it's an unresolved issue.i do agree with secretary castro, that it's both and.you make both options available, and the questionbecomes can you afford it.
>> i read a recent articleabout a natural experiment that occurred because of thekatrina flood where many returning prisoners wereunable to move to the neighborhoods that theyotherwise would have returned to, very poor neighborhoodsin the lower ninth ward and a large number of them ended upbeing through intentional programs located in houston,other cities, and that the recidivism rate was lower forthose who didn't return to their home community as thosewho did.
marg, you have been studyingthis question, and for those who haven't seen it and areinterested, marg and some of her urban colleagues havewritten a terrific paper about place-based,place-wonshus strategies and the tension between moving toopportunity and place. do you want to share anythoughts about that? >> well, we're coming to the 36same conclusion, that we need to do both.the evidence argues for both end strategy.and in fact i think that this
debate about people versusplace or abilities versus revitalization is reallycounterproductive. neither one of them cansucceed fully if the other part of the strategy isneglected. i don't see how we cannotinvest in the most urgent needs of core neighborhoods.and that means safety, that means schools, and it meanshealthy places to play. so that the kids who aregrowing up in those neighborhoods can get afoothold, on the ladder
toward a decent life, ofsuccess. and when our investments workand start to pay off, we have to worry about preservingaffordable housing options in those now very attractiveneighborhoods in cities so that allows the originalresidents to stay and enjoy the benefits, but i think atthe same time we pursue that strategy, we absolutely haveto be eliminating the barriers that still blocklower income families, especially families of color,from finding affordable
places to live inneighborhoods of their choice that already have goodschools and safe playgrounds and healthy grocery storeoptions. so that means doing just whatwas happening in this series, building lower priced 37housing, building rental housing in neighborhoods allover the place, cities and suburbs, and movingsubsidies, vouchers, and other mechanisms, too, toreally help poor families who want to make that kind of amove to opportunity.
so i'm sometimes accused ofbeing naive and thinking that we can and should do both,and i know resources are scarce, but if you startthinking about the portfolio of approaches that includes acombination of activities, they are going to add up tomore than individual battles between this mobility and therevitalization effort. >> i'm going to switch gearsa little bit and go back to this conversation aboutfederal level and local level tensions.i noticed a fleeting glance
of secretary kemp during thecommunity protests, that there were federal officialsin the form of judge sands were in many ways perceivedas an enemy of the community but the local officials, yourjob was to protect us against those national councilmembers, the others who fail to protect our rents.in the series, we see those council members purchasingsigns, there threaten to jail, so they are votingagainst it. in some ways the federalofficials are seen from a
local perspective as the badguys, from the local perspective, the localofficials are good guys, but you know, in our national 38debate and the stories on "the new york times," "thenew york times" reporter who becomes a bit of an adversaryto one of the opponents of the housing, the localofficials are the bad guys. david, can you talk a littleabout the role of federal and state?mr. secretary? >> being a promoter ordemoter?
>>>> [inaudible comment] >> i think it's sort ofironic that jack kemp -- the case came out of the carteradministration's civil rights division, and of course, thesubsequent eight years, that division was completely -- itwas a residual case that was pursued because it gotlaunched before the change in administration.but secretary kemp actually kept good lines ofcommunication open to try to help yonkers get throughthis.
he actually was, you know --in a healthy bipartisan moment, he was trying toassist people locally who were trying to do the rightthing, and yonkers, specifically the housingofficials. i was very impressed by notonly oscar newman and his, what he was able to achieveas consultant, a court-sponsored consultant inthe case, in terms of the architecture and the logic,but the professional -- a bureaucrat has a terrible --it's a phrase that we all
sneer at, but i covered -- i 39was on a metro beat, i knew a lot of good bureaucrats,local, state people who knew their business, and very muchso, the people that -- when the politicians got out ofthe way and when the ranting stopped, there were peoplewho were actually very effective at making pragmaticdecisions that led to these houses, and not just the 200,but the 800 affordable that got built after them,functionally, and not damaging the neighborhood.and keeping promises, and it
was a pleasure in some waysto honor the comings in the wheel, because that's wherethe rubber hits the road, and if you look at federalhousing policy, in the generations prior, the thingsthat built in my city, lexington terrace, murphyhomes, the big enormous, disastrous, unpolicableprojects, i mean, i went into those stairwells to reportstuff, and they were unpolicable, and they were --oscar newman was right on that score, and i've seensince this came out a
critique of oscar newmansaying there are two things you can throw at the idea ofdispensable space and housing, which is one is it'snot enough. it's not enough units.you tear down these high rises, take down the homes,and you start -- and you are throwing only a handful ofunits by comparison back into the housing mix, you got todo more, you're going to have to invest in more units if we 40are going to get rid of these things that were repositoriesfor entrenched poverty and
where the kids grew up.not just less life expectancy, but what kind oflife were you expecting. so there is a valid critiqueof it's one thing to take down the old massive housingprojects of the past and try to do scattered site andsubstantive space, but you've got to do that in meaningfulnumbers. and the other thing that wasa critique is i thought was the way the federalpriorities have gone i felt was specious.i read something -- what they
were arguing is if theeconomic opportunity was available, if there were allkinds of jobs available for all -- if the educationalsystem were functional, living in high rise,condensed projects would not be as significantlydisastrous and discopiate as it is.again, anybody starts to get perfectly ideological on me,you know -- but for liberals, too, on some level, no, i'msorry, you know, those jobs are not coming back, they'renot about to open all the
factories that went to thepacific rim, they are not going to open them in westbaltimore, again, you know, the port isn't coming backthe way it did. that steel is not going toreopen tomorrow. it's what we have now.you are talking about entrenched employment, 41underemployment. what is the best housingfunction for that, and there, oscar newman had itsurrounded, which was you can't, you know -- thislevel, in this kind of
economic disparity, you know,you can put up a 12 story unit and put up six towers ofthat, i can tell you what's going to happen, and havingthe police report in baltimore, when the towerswere still standing, he was right.so anybody starts getting pure on me, ideologically,saying you just have to be -- you put your blinders on andpretend that everyone is going to be great when we putup a high rise, no. it's like somewhere in themiddle, doing something of
everything, or acknowledgingthe boundaries on both sides, somewhere in the middle iswhat seems to be the function.i'm really into pragmatism. i'm not particularly intoideology. >> so before -- i would loveto hear your thoughts on that but i also want to put onemore topic on the table before we come to everyone,so i hope you are getting your cards ready.we are going to raise your hands and people will collectthose.
one the story does well, itit talks about the relationship -- and i knowdavid if you are -- i don't know if you were thinkingcontemplatively or not -- about the relationship 42between housing and health, and we talk now about housingas a platform, i love the story of the kid with asthmaand the way that the mothers looked at the physical spacefor their children, and the woman who was not well suitedto live in the towers because of her diabetes had led it toher blindness.
so the relationship betweenfederal and state, and also, the echos for today'sconversation on housing. >> just on that, on healthand housing, we do see, and folks who do the research seea strong link between the two and the fact is that hud hasbeen investing in this connection for a while,whether it's impacting elevated blood levels, ormold remediation or issues related to asthma, thesedays, we are excited about the work that is centering onthis demographic wave of baby
boomers who are becomingsenior citizens and how do we get folks to understand thatinvesting in housing with good, supportive services andhealth care is a way to both ensure healthier residents,and probably longer life outcomes, and also save moneyon the other end of medicare and medicaid.so we have only begun i think in federal policy tounderstand the power of that linkage.with regard to the issue of federal and in state, i'veseen it from both ends, and
one of the things that doesstrike me is of course everybody knows that to the 43extent that you can get something to be led locally,that's always going to go over better in the localcommunity than if they see the federal government.outside of i think some progressive bastions in someparts -- maybe in san francisco, they wouldn'tcare, but you know, i came from texas, so i have to dealwith these issues. getting the local communityto buy in is always the best
policy.and to the credit of the obama administration, and i'mhere for the last two years, but i saw as mayor one of thegood things they were doing was establishing strongerrelationships with mayors and with county officials thanusual, and engaging local officials to work across thesilos in the federal government, housing, workingin education, working with transportation, with epa,getting local governments to mirror that and then to workwith the federal government.
so i'm hopeful that evenafter this administration is complete, in january 2017,there are a whole bunch of mayors out there, countyofficials, city council members, that are going towork in that way, and also they will have had a positiveexperience with the federal government that hopefullywill carry on when they work with the next administrationand so forth. >> james, just quickly onthis point, your cases are very often brought against 44the local actors.
are the feds your friends inthat work? federal judges are almostalways helpful. almost all of our casesagainst local government -- you know, hud has been atsome points friendly and at some points not friendly, tobe frank, and that has been both under democratic andrepublican administrations. sometimes friendly, sometimesnot friendly. and i will say to david'spoint that the comings in the wheel are perhaps the mostimportant relationships that
you can have, because theadministrations and their viewpoints change but thosebureaucrats don't change, and your relationships with thosebureaucrats are so important, and they make all thedifference, frankly, in what your outcomes are and ineverything you do on a federal level.>> so all of -- i see in this room many people who arecurrent federal employees, and some may be local aswell, so i hope you can go home and tell your familiesthat you were celebrated
today.>> quickly to amplify that point, people get caricaturedas bureaucrats, but there is a very good point, they arethe ones that are supposed to be able to do this withoutthe politics, without the crowd that is on them, andwanting and thinking well, am i going to get elected or notelected if i decide this or decide that that. is the 45power and i think the blessing of the bureaucracy,as much as it gets maligned. they have a great role toplay in ensuring fairness and
even handedness.>> marg, one of our questioners from the audienceasked a question that picks up on something marg talkedabout before, so for ul all of you, for marg as well,they were asking about the intersection with theseissues and the thing that maybe in healthy cities, incities that are growing now, are as big a challenge forlow income and also communities of color, forexample, in d.c., which is the challenge ofparticipation, of seeing
property values rise when aneighborhood starts to grow and there's economicinvestments and the people of that community tend no longerto be part of it anymore. how do the two issues relateto one another and i hate to say which is the biggerchallenge because every place is different and in somecities they have both the challenges simultaneously.how do you pursue them simultaneously?>> again, i think part of the -- part of what gets us intotrouble is that we try to
tackle okay, what's myinitiative for addressing the gentrification issue in thisneighborhood today, what is my strategy for addressingthis distressed neighborhood today, and those are a partof our larger metropolitan market that's changing all 46the time. people are moving around, andneighborhoods are inevitably changing.and they are focused on giving people at every incomelevel the chance to make choices about where they wantto live and choices of
neighborhoods that are richwith opportunity. then you think about aportfolio of strategies, including how will werevitalize the most distressed neighborhood,making it safer, making it healthier.how are we building affordable housing andpreserving affordable housing in neighborhoods where themarket is starting to take off and prices are gettinghot. at the same time, how do wetake the pressure off low
income families in both ofthose circumstances by opening up and creating moreaffordable housing in neighborhoods where itcurrently doesn't exist. so again, this may sound alittle utopian, but i really think each of those goals iseasier to achieve if it's being pursued as a part of astrategy that includes all of them.>> one of the challenges, though, is that crossing thepolitical barriers, right, that -- you end up a lot oftimes -- you spend a lot of
your time fighting within thecity, but then some of the ramifications or consequencesexist in the suburbs, and so it becomes a challenge trying 47to -- when we realize you have extended so many of yourresources only in the city and you've forgotten to fightthese fights in the suburbs for some time. and my hopewould be that's one of the areas where the federalgovernment can help. >> that's true.>> the federal government creates incentives and somepressures to overcome
political localization.>> so i've got two questions here and i'm going to askthem both and invite anyone to comment on either of them.the first is about the role -- this is from the actionfor democratic government and specifically asking about therole that universities and hospitals play in the effortto push -- to create more affordable housing in ourcities. and the other question comesfrom piper hendricks at habitat for humanity, she isasking in this comment, i
hear a sort of a plea, can wefind more examples of success in addressing division in thehearts and mind of affordable housing?>> and maybe anchor institutions could be part ofit. >> can speak specifically toanchor institutions, being from baltimore, and from thecity of new orleans, i think there's a really ugly tale ineast baltimore and mid city with the ambitions -- you geta strong powerful anchor institution that has its ownparticular ambitions, and
something like affordable 48housing, and the integrity of the surroundingneighborhoods, is playing a secondary part.it's completely vulnerable. in east baltimore, johnshopkins university, the most powerful institution --certainly the largest employer in the city ofbaltimore after government, they built a village in orderto save it. i got 12, 15, 18 squareblocks of brown fields that is going to be graduatehousing or a biotech park
that's been slated to bebuilt but they got rid of it. they got rid of eastbaltimore. they solved their problemwith integrating themselves into the surroundingcommunity. and the same thing happenedwith the hospital complex. they looked upon katrina asbeing an opportunity for them as an institution and a lotof affordable housing and a lot of traditionalneighborhoods were bulldozed in mid city, and you know, ithink anyone who thinks that
unpoliced, these institutionsare going to be of any value other than their ownambitions is very naive. i'm married to an academic,and she has been at three universities since we've beentogether. princeton, tulane university of new orleans,and now wake forest in north carolina.and as much as -- i guess we are thankful she is able tobe employed, the experience for the neighborhoods where 49those universities have been located, at least with regardto affordable housing, it's
been terrible.and, you know, what they do is they drive up propertyvalue without any regard for affordability or lower incomefamilies and often times, particularly in new orleans,tulane university was one of the greatest drivers ofunaffordability. >> secretary, you have anoffice that has been in the past at least focused ontrying to work with anchor institutions and partnershipswith universities. do you have any positivestories there?
>> yeah.>> a ga example of this is the university of chicago.the wood lawn neighborhood, university of chicago.they got a choice neighborhood grant, and theyhave worked to support the redevelopment and enhancementof the wood lawn neighborhood in a number of ways fromhelping with security in the area, to sharing ofresources, and so there is one example of a universitythat has gone outside of its bounds to try and be part ofthe solution.
but i think that often times,the problem for universities is they just don't thinkabout it. there's not part of what theysee as an issue. so any time we can get,whether it's the university or a hospital or other anchorinstitution, to think in terms of what else they can 50do to help the folks who live around there, and not topursue polices or investments that have an exclusionaryimpact, basically, on their surrounding area.i see that as a positive.
i know in the 1990s, iremember reading the panel pretty under secretarycisneros that he put out, some of you may remember it,about the role of university in neighborhoods, and whetherit's building up choice neighborhoods, they do have arole to play in positively impacting those neighborhoodsaround them, and the university of chicago todayis one example we cite. >> the other part of thequestion we have, programs or efforts at affordable housingdevelopment that have helped
create more maries, that havehelped see people not only sort of come to accept andalmost not notice that have actually changed hearts andminds, and the search for the maries, i think, is one ofthe things that i take from this story, that that wasother people have criticized it, because it was veryexpensive, per unit of housing, those programs were,and scaling them is a huge challenge.we have a question from adrian tuchman, director ofthe d.c. housing authority
here, and she asks i thinksomething that is really interesting to think about.she says that many people in d.c. in particular actuallydo understand the need for affordable housing. 51when you use that term, many people see themselves in it.and they see the idea that having a community where workforce -- those are her words. but that same port is notonly fair when we talk about public housing.we have us joel shoderman who directs the housing authorityof the city of yonkers today.
so the challenges of ourpublic housing in this country and public understandit about it, mr. secretary? >> there's still a stigmaassociated with traditional public housing, also withsection eight. a few months ago, when thatvideo came out, the officer that manhandled that youngwoman, it was in the dallas, the dfw suburbs, and before,they had told the kids, go back to your section eight,there's no question that voucher holders and publichousing residents still face
a stigma.how do you deal with that? well, i do think thatopportunities for reality testing for folks -- here wehad one very crystallized example of it.i wish that i could say that that were more common.because the fact is that in most of our cities today, ourlocalities, a lot of times, people don't interact likethat. sometimes, they do at work,sometimes they do in places like the subway, if you areon the t in boston, but
there's not enough of thatthat happens. and what's ironic is that 52when we talk about affordable housing versus publichousing, the story of that is that those two things havebecome very blended in these last couple of decades.you will have housing that is mixed income, people ofdifferent income levels, and so that stigma needs to be, ithink, chipped away at, and people ought to rethink whatthey believe is public housing, too.>> marg?
>> and i think the stigmasare that stems from prejudice.but in addition, those perceptions of what publichousing is also connect back to some of the realities ofpast public housing, and so i think it makes it absolutelyessential that these programs are administered reallyeffectively. that public housingdevelopments that exist need to be managed really, reallywell. and local housing authoritiesneed to manage the voucher
program really effectively sothat those programs live up to their potential, servetheir residents well, and don't seize prejudices orstigmas. >> in new orleans, we did astudy of -- they wouldn't accept vouchers, you know, wehad voucher holders to try to rent apartments inneighborhoods of opportunity and when they were turneddown, we would have them to ask the landlords why andresearchers to call them and see if they could interview 53the landlords and see why
they were turned down, and wecame up with this list of reasons and one of the topsreasons, interestingly enough, was the management ofthe housing authority, and people said well, you know, itried it before, and after i had my tenants three months inever got a check, so it ends up in the same situationwhere i had to evict this tenant because my tenantcouldn't afford the rent and it had been three months andi never got paid and my tenant was trying to -- andthat happened over and over
and over again.and so as much as all the stereotype came up, we gotlots of racial stereotyping and so forth, that was thenumber one reason, was mismanagement by the housingauthority. >> that's a stereotype aboutthe new orleans government. >> [laughter]>> they say a stereotype has its roots and a certainreality. >> whole other panel!>> it wasn't just this city! >> i grew up in an assistedhousing in upper west side of
new york, i lived in a muchlarger project for middle class families, but we werein a neighborhood in which -- and there were towers, and25th floor, but the building next to me was publichousing, the building across the street was -- and downthe block was also public housing for the elderly, andthere were moderate income houses and if you were a 54student of architecture, you could tell which buildingswere under which programs because you recognized theway building doors were
framed.public housing always used certain types of materials,and assisted housing used others.but the fact that it was a neighborhood that workedbecause it was mixed in with other kinds of housing, verysuccessfully, and it had yonkers, central park west,middle side drive, and upper, middle income houses, so thatmixed use. so i think it didn't have thestigma in that neighborhood, maybe because of geography,as in others, and i know
that's at a lower scale, muchof what your department is trying to do today.so a number of our questioners have a reallyitching to do your job, because what we have here area whole lot of story lines that people are suggesting!i suspect this isn't the first time this has everhappened. >> let's move on to taxreform! >> exactly.>> [inaudible] >> can we talk about theimpact of work requirements,
public benefits?you'll hear from margaret posnic, she argued that giventhe recent visit of pope francis, his message onpoverty and integration, maybe your next series shouldbe on the intersection of religion and politics and 55social policy. so stepping back, whether youwant to tackle religion and policy or not -->> it needs to be tackled. >> so maybe we -- after youdo the house of representatives, but whatmakes -- we were talking
before about the audience forthis program. this has gottenextraordinarily wonderful reviews, its audience ismodest, people in this room and others like us, i'm sure.how do you decide which of these issues make forcompelling television and what are you able to tackleand get support for? >> you need a spine which hasto do with character and story.so in this case, it's the political life and death ofnick wasisco.
onto that you can -- to thatscale, you can hang all -- to that skeleton, hang organ andflesh and try and get as much as you can.but it's really -- let's be honest, there are things thatpolicy research and even journalism, good journalism,can accomplish that drama cannot.drama is in some ways a provocation, a means ofgetting an argument started, but expo position is --exposition is the death of drama.so as we noted, this case
began in 1980, we come in at'87, we are out pretty much on the end of nick wasisco'scareer, and that's '94, the case went on to 2007. 56there was a de segregation component, an affordablehousing component. it was an incred bliblcomplicated case. we're not tracking that.we are showing you a political career that runs upon the rocks of america's inability to share.and we can make a very distinct allegory and usethis to reflect on our tile
and things that are -- i'mobviously straining the nto stuff that happened in mycity, i'm looking at what happened post-katrina in neworleans in housing, i'm looking at tarrytown, twotowns north of yonkers, same type, same rhetoric, and ithink i to myself, i can use this, i can use this life ofwasisco, to tell a story that will trick people intoconsidering the used of public housing and sharedcitizenship. but there are things i can'tdo.
and like nobody could -- noneof the characters could have a conversation where theyexplain fully the origins of public housing, the idea thatthis was a program -- it goes back it to the new deal, infact, and its origin, and that was originally for whitepeople. in fact, by in large, it was-- right until the end of world war ii, and it becamean incredible resource for returning veterans for theirfamilies, and the hyperbolic opposition to it now has itsorigins in the fact that
people of color began to 57become the beneficiaries of it.if somebody -- if a character just said what i said to you,it's like man, you know, i'm going to game of thrones, youknow? >> [laughter]>> in some ways, you have to understand what it can andcan't do and you have to let drama be drama.so it can be a provocation, but a lot of people --because i came out of journalism, a lot of peopleask me, is this supplanting
what you used to do.no, journalism was journalism.it's a shame people inner to it or it's not done on thesame level, because the revenue steam in journalismhas been so impaired, but it had its boundaries for whatcould be accomplished by a careful reporter or a carefulresearcher, or research being reported and discussed.i can't replace that with this.i can be a provocation, i can begin an argument, and that'sit.
and so i got to be reallycareful about claiming more for this than i can.>> well, let us say that what it can do is it can cause allof us who might sometimes get caught up in our day to daylives and who may almost turn away when we go home to relaxto find another way to engage and really think, and i dothink there's no doubt that these five or six differentstory lines we've been talking about have this 58common thread and has told that tale in a wonderful waythat brings insight, and we
bring research to the table,obviously, insight to the table, but it's clear thereis great insight here. i'm going to ask each of youto offer a closing thought, and i'm going to go back tothe title of the show for the present thought, that youmentioned -- i guess earlier, that the title of the showcomes from a line from scott fitzgerald who says show me ahero and i'll write you a tragedy and there's a greatvideo clip if you watch the shows on hbo, they do alittle interview about the
making of the showafterwards, which is well worth watching, and you talka little more in that david about what that quote means.you know, the mayor was not really -- certainly not aperfect hero, but his life certainly ends tragically, soi'm going to ask you to reflect on whether you thinkour nation's struggle to find a way for people to livetogether in healthy, integrated communities ofopportunity, is that going to end tragically or do we endwith some hope that we are
making progress?and on that question, marg, do you want to start?>> sarah knows that i'm an optimistic person by nature.>> pathologically so! >> i can't accept that itends at the tragic. i can't accept that thesegregation that we have built in our country is 59insurmountable. i recognize for one howpainfully slow the process has been, and how incrediblydifficult the issue is for people with politicalresponsibility and power to
tackle honestly.one of the things that makes me optimistic right now isthat there's a huge amount of concern about inequality andbarriers to mobility in our country, and those topics aregetting a lot of attention from a much wider range ofpeople than are typically talking about segregation andits consequences. the research, this series,other issues in the news push the topic of segregation andchallenges of segregation up into the conversation aboutinequality and mobility.
and i think if we can keep itthere, if we can make it clear that we are not goingto narrow it, we are widening the gap, we are not going toovercome the barriers to mobility up in our society,we basically leave ourselves as segregated as we are now,and race, ethnicity, money, as we push the conversationstogether, we might be able to accelerate the process.>> first of all, i want to thank david for telling notjust this story but the story -- i know you've heard it ahundred times, but it was
just so realistic and trulytold the story of times after katrina, and one other pointthat i think may sound funny but is so true, when otherpeople tell the new orleans story on television, the 60accents are wrong! and so somehow, when iwatched treme, unfortunately, it didn't sound like me,because my own accent is bad, so -- but the other thing iwanted to say, but before i get specifically to thequestion, is that when it comes to -- so my friends whostarted watching frankly
before i began watching thati needed to watch show me a hero because they saw me inthe show and they saw me in the show both because of thehousing advocacy, but none of them -- in 2010, i ran forthe mayor of the city of new orleans, and it was a verytough and difficult campaign, and one of the things that ididn't know at the time was that the housing lobbying inthe state and the city was apparently throwing hundredsof thousands of dollars in the campaign against me inorder to keep me from being
successful and at the time, ithought well, who is doing this.i didn't know where it was coming from.all the folks i was -- the people i asked, they werelike i'm not doing this. so it's a badge of honor,when my character was being assassinated, i was like whois doing this. when i saw nick going throughthe difficulties, particularly losingcampaigns, you know, i really identified with him, and wheni agreed to come on this
panel, it was before i sawthe last episode! and it was like oh! 61>> [laughter] >> but so, last but notleast, the last question brings me to the firstquestion that you asked, which was how are thingsdifferent, and, you know, the yonkers case took 27 years.our case in saint bernard parish which so closelytrackings the yonkers case took about nine years.and so everything about the saint bernard parish case isso similar, but for the fact
that we did it in about onethird of the time. and over and over again, ikeep seeing fair housing cases that are very similarand very complex and difficult, but they getresolved in a shorter period of time, and so one of thethings that i think is clearly improved is that weare resolving these issues in the court system morequickly. the second is that i do thinkthat younger generations clearly see a benefit todiverse communities, and that
younger generations of allraces and backgrounds want diverse, inclusivecommunities. and so i do think that -- itmay be that it's not our litigation that puts us outof business, but it is that young people put us out ofbusiness, and just because they want somethingdifferent. and so what may be differentmay not be our advocacy, the speed of justice, but it maysimply be that young people think that diversity is good. 62>> [applause]
>> i was just thinking of myson, college age, and the temperament that he has forbeing able to walk in a room and be, you know, be a whitekid and be in a minority, in the room, he grew up inbaltimore, and he is a musician, and he is, you know-- lived a lot of his life in new orleans, and i'm a lefty.i came up from mchenry county.but i don't have the same temperament he does.i may be a reporter in a majority black city so i hadto be the minority but i
remember feeling my ownpersonal limitations, and my son and people of hisgeneration that i have encountered, there issomething transformational. i didn't think i was going tolive long enough to see an african-american president.that was a remarkable moment in my life.so i think in some ways, the country is changingdemographically. and a lot of people withtalking about what happened to yonkers after the housing.a lot of people were citing
the fact that it was 80-20,80 percent white, and now it's 55-45.but look at the actual demographics of the new yorkmetropolitan area. it's supposed to be -- thevictory is not keeping it 80-20.the victory is not destabilizing while we becomea country that is more of color than it was. 63because that's where we are going.and in some ways, the demographics are going tooutpace the -- the future is
going to blow up so thatpeople can walk in the room and there's no majority.that's who's going to claim the future.in some ways, they are going to do it whether we like itor not, and some of us genuinely like it.so that's probably the most optimistic you'll ever catchme being! >> i'm a distopian guy.but i would add one thing to that, which is to say that itdoesn't matter whether you're optimistic or pessimistic.years ago, somebody gave me a
copy of kamoo's resistancefor -- >> what he basically arguesthere is okay, the odds are wrong, any number of thingscan go wrong and probably will, you are going to lose,probably, you're going to lose more than you're goingto win, it's going to be miserable, and death is atthe end of every door. you can try or not try, butonly one choice offers the chance at dignity, which isto fight. you either fight or you don'tfight.
if you don't fight, you notonly are going to lose but you're also going to be anasshole! so you might as well fight!>> right? >> [applause]>> once you sort of unburden yourself of the need to win 64or to be assured of winning, it gets easier.you know, i don't know -- someone said the only fightsworth winning are the ones you know you are going tolose. if you think about it,sometimes that's the way it's
got to be.so it doesn't matter either way.>> so we've book-ended our testaments to -->> [laughter] >> [inaudible]>> he couldn't do it if he tried.>> everyone has said it very well, first of all, thank youagain, and to the urban institute and congratulationson great work. i'm very optimistic for manyof the same reasons. we are the fastest growingcategory so to speak in the
census, people who are mixedrace, who identify as mixed race.you have the demography changing in our country andliterally on that level, you know, lives overcomingprejudice, and 100 years from now, when they see whathappened, when they read what happened in terms of thiskind of discrimination and efforts it to keep peopleout, now -- now it shouldn't take 100 years, and so that'swhere the fight comes in, and all of us have a role toplay, and for the fleeting
amount of time that i andmany folks in the room or at hud, we want to put up thatfight, and pat of what makes me optimistic is i know that 65there are a whole bunch of people out there in differentwalks of life, also in important leadershippositions in local communities that also want toput up that fight and we look forward to working with themto make that difference. >> [applause]>> thank you. this was an amazingdiscussion.
thank you guys.>> [applause]
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